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N92 Pictures Are Ready! + N93 Call For Presentations, Talk of the Week

Posted by Nanog News on Nov 13

*** Reminder: NANOG 93 Call For Presentations*
------------------------------------------------------------
*The PC is Seeking Talk Proposals for N93!*

We are looking to schedule over 1,600 minutes of content for NANOG 93 - so
don’t wait! We want to hear from you whether you plan to present from on
the stage or as a live remote presenter.

*MORE INFO* <https://nanog.org/program/call-presentations/>...




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Re: [manrs-community] Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Brandon Z. on Nov 13

Hi guys,

In technical terms, RIRs can indeed configure IPs to become RPKI invalid.
However, my point is not to remove RPKI but to make it invalid.

This could happen; for example, RIPE was required to remove all IRRs
related to Russia (I'm glad RIPE has not done this).

Decentralization can address this issue; it's not just a hype concept.

Best,
*Brandon Z.*
HUIZE LTD
www.huize.asia <https://huize.asia/>| www.ixp.su | Twitter...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Roman Tatarnikov on Nov 13

Brandon, I blockchain and BGP were discussed on NANOG some years ago, back
when the deployment of RPKI was brought up. Short answer - it won't solve jack
and will use tons of computation power.

I'm not really going to go into details, but essentially adding a band-aid
instead of adopting RPKI and addressing the issues with RIR is not the best
course of action.




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Francis Booth via NANOG on Nov 13

In such a scenario I’d argue for less automation to prevent such a rogue RIR from being able to cause such a disruption
to the Internet.

To expand on what Tom mentioned, Networks are not yet rejecting announcements with a NotFound validation. Even if such
an event did occur I’d be willing to bet most network operators are going to be leaning on their interpersonal
connections rather than automation to reestablish peering with networks....




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by William Herrin on Nov 13

Hi Brandon,

That's not how blockchain works. Validation is time-bound and
irrevocable. Only the current key-holder can transfer the validated
material to another entity. Effecting such transfers requires minimal
computation, on the order of a few HTTPS transfers.

Under block chain, an RIR would not be able to revoke number
resources, not even for non-payment or fraud. And if the keys
associated with an address block were lost or stolen,...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Jason Iannone on Nov 13

Imagine decentralizing x.509.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 11:42 AM Roman Tatarnikov <r.tatarnikov () intlos org>
wrote:




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Brandon Z. on Nov 13

Hi William,

Okay, this would lead to a permanent loss of resources, whereas
cryptocurrency does not have this issue.

the rules for NANOG and I presume it's against the rules for MANRS as
well.

Noticed that; sorry for posting twice as well.

Best,
*Brandon Z.*
HUIZE LTD
www.huize.asia <https://huize.asia/>| www.ixp.su | Twitter

This e-mail and any attachments or any reproduction of this e-mail in
whatever manner are confidential...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Jason R. Rokeach via NANOG on Nov 13

For what it's worth, this is quite implementation specific and leaves a lot of room for intentional and appropriate
design decisions. Custom smart contract (think "decentralized program") code could be used to enable the functionality
desired for an RIR, without other functionality.
Let's extrapolate: An RIR could use smart contracts with immutable code to allow an entity to register a specific block
and retain certain...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Tom Beecher on Nov 13

Incorrect.

If the RIR revokes the resource certificate used to sign the ROA, the ROA
is also then revoked. Validator software will then remove the VRPs that had
been created from that previously valid ROA. If there are no other VRPs
that cover the BGP message parameters, the validator will return NOTFOUND.

If the RIR refused to publish or deleted the ROA, validators will
eventually delete them, which also removes the VRP previously created. If...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by William Herrin on Nov 13

Not really. If it's technically feasible to override or roll back
transactions, you've violated one of the central tenets of block
chain. You can design a system that allows transactions to be rolled
back or changed by a central authority but the result would not be a
block chain and would not have the desired characteristic of
resistance against government compulsion.

Regards,
Bill Herrin




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Jason R. Rokeach via NANOG on Nov 13

transactions, you've violated one of the central tenets of block
chain.

To be clear, I did not state such. Ownership can be transferred by smart contract. This does not violate a core tenet
of blockchains and is a key feature of almost all blockchains which still exhibit signs of life.




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by William Herrin on Nov 13

If the RIR can institute a revocation via smart contract, for any
reason, then you haven't achieved any resilience against government
compulsion applied to the RIR, which was Brandon's reason for
considering blockchain in the first place.

Regards,
Bill Herrin




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Matt Corallo on Nov 13

Thanks for raising this topic. In all the rush to deploy RPKI I fear these issues are not talked
about enough.

A variant of this could make some sense, the issue is that it doesn't do you a whole lot of good to
have a local RPKI anchor that you and your local community look to if the global internet community
isn't looking at it - sure, your IPs are routable to a few of your friends, but they can't reach
Google...oops....




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by Seth David Schoen on Nov 13

Matt Corallo writes:

There are some tools out there either directly using or inspired by
Certificate Transparency that facilitate transparency logging of other
kinds of events. It might be interesting to put RPKI events into one
of those.

The big difference between blockchains and systems like CT is that the
latter do have single points of failure (an operator can shut down the
log completely, or break it in other ways), or at least relatively...




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Re: Implementing Decentralized RPKI with Blockchain Technology

Posted by David Conrad via NANOG on Nov 14

Tom,

Something I’ve been curious about for some time: since deployment of RPKI is (mostly) hosted by the RIRs and
ultimately, the RIRs control the validation chain, what would happen if the RIR creates (or, if you prefer, is directed
by court order to create) INVALIDs?

Regards,
-drc




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