Jim McKelvey, entrepreneur and cofounder of Square, says that most companies that think of themselves as innovative are really just copycats. True innovation, he argues, is about fearlessly exploring novel solutions and dramatically expanding markets. Doing so also helps startups defend their innovations against industry giants, as Square did against Amazon. McKelvey is the author of the book “The Innovation Stack: Building an Unbeatable Business One Crazy Idea at a Time.”

Napster Cofounder Sean Parker and Biologist Alex Marson spoke with WIRED’s Sandra Upson as part of WIRED25, WIRED’s 25th anniversary celebration in San Francisco.